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story category AT&T Makes Friends With 4Chan
Users briefly lose access during DDoS negotiation...
(old news - 08:36AM Monday Jul 27 2009)
tags: world · networking
Tipped by djforumsguy See Profile
As users in our AT&T forum discuss, AT&T didn't make many friends last night by temporarily blocking user access to img.4chan.org in order to curtail a DDoS attack. Before the 4chan folks wage all out war on AT&T in the way only they can (whoops, too late), discussion on the NANOG mailing list indicates other operators also blocked the same server due to relentless ACK scan reports, including Cogent and unWired. "We had no choice but to block that single IP until the attacks let up," says unWired's Shon Elliott. "It was a decision I made with the gentleman that owns the colo facility currently hosts 4chan, he says, adding that "there was no other way around it."

Update: AT&T gave us the following statement around noon today:
Beginning Friday, an AT&T customer was impacted by a denial-of-service attack stemming from IP addresses connected to img.4chan.org. To prevent this attack from disrupting service for the impacted AT&T customer, and to prevent the attack from spreading to impact our other customers, AT&T temporarily blocked access to the IP addresses in question for our customers. This action was in no way related to the content at img.4chan.org; our focus was on protecting our customers from malicious traffic.

Overnight Sunday, after we determined the denial-of-service threat no longer existed, AT&T removed the block on the IP addresses in question. We will continue to monitor for denial-of-service activity and any malicious traffic to protect our customers.

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Forums » AT&T Makes Friends With 4Chan
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pnh102
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Hmmm...

How much did 4chan.org pay AT&T for this publicity?
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Hasselhoff
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Re: Hmmm...

probably not a cent. its too sweet of a deal for them.

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Re: Hmmm...

said by Hasselhoff See Profile :

probably not a cent. its too sweet of a deal for them.
I must be getting cynical. I must admit that prior to this story I'd never heard of this website.

While I don't have any evidence to back up this assertion, I've come to believe that the saying "you can't buy this type of publicity" isn't really that true anymore.
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sonicmerlin

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Re: Hmmm...

4chan did not buy publicity to reach the likes of you.

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I had heard of it but figured it was on the same level of crap as Facebook, MySpace, and Twitter.

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Re: Hmmm...

no. 4chan (especially /b/) is far below the likes of social networking sites.

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Re: Hmmm...

said by Hasselhoff See Profile :

no. 4chan (especially /b/) is far below the likes of social networking sites.
I saw what you did thar!

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Re: Hmmm...

said by a333 See Profile :

LOL!!!! I love /b/ !!!
Personally, I can't look at it for more than 5 minutes without thinking that some of my brain cells have just died.

I'm glad people enjoy it, but it's not for me.
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1 edit
And it didn't stop DailyKos from jumping to the wrong conclusions and going off on a rant:
»www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/···-tonight
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I'd say that the underlying assumption, that we need some kind of net neutrality, is sound regardless of the reasons for the temporary "ban".

Last night, AT&T demonstrated that they can block access to a particular site and that, under certain circumstances (whatever those may be), they are willing to block access to certain sites.

In this case, apparently 4chan was blocked because it was the target of an ongoing DDOS attack. Well what kind of message does that send to attackers? That if they make life hard enough for a big enough ISP, they actually do have the power to shut down access to their targeted site?

That's a recipe to guarantee that these attacks continue and, if anything, get worse. Who do the script kiddies target next? The RNC? The White House? AT&T just set a bad precedent.
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Re: Hmmm...

said by Corydon See Profile :

I'd say that the underlying assumption, that we need some kind of net neutrality, is sound regardless of the reasons for the temporary "ban".

Last night, AT&T demonstrated that they can block access to a particular site and that, under certain circumstances (whatever those may be), they are willing to block access to certain sites.

In this case, apparently 4chan was blocked because it was the target of an ongoing DDOS attack. Well what kind of message does that send to attackers? That if they make life hard enough for a big enough ISP, they actually do have the power to shut down access to their targeted site?

That's a recipe to guarantee that these attacks continue and, if anything, get worse. Who do the script kiddies target next? The RNC? The White House? AT&T just set a bad precedent.
I don't see it that way. The site is back up - probably after AT&T & the web site putting mitigation measures in place to blunt the effect of the DDOS attacks. A reasonable response to what occurred.
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Re: Hmmm...

it does not matter why they blocked it. the point is is that they proved they have the means to do it and are willing to do it. net neutrality takes that job away from them.

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Re: Hmmm...

Not if they claim the offender is attacking their network or their customers.

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said by Hasselhoff See Profile :

the point is is that they proved they have the means to do it and are willing to do it. net neutrality takes that job away from them.
AT&T controls the routing within their network and peering routers via something you might have heard of called the IP protocol (TCP and UDP). They have always had the ability to control where traffic flows...everyone has, it's how the internet works.

Net neutrality is a seperate issue and to be quite frank if you can't understand that you shouldn't really comment on it. The issues surrounding net neutrality don't have to do with blocking certain websites (although they can) but rather imparing or giving the ISP some type of unfair advantage that upsets the playing field.

This whole situation is really just being overblown.
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Re: Hmmm...

Whoh....nice bitch-slap, man!

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AT&T is my dumb pipe, i wish that they would stay that way.

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Re: Hmmm...

said by Hasselhoff See Profile :

AT&T is my dumb pipe, i wish that they would stay that way.
I agree...at least in theory.

AT&T is not now, nor has it been since 2003 a dumb pipe. They currently block ports 135, 139 and 445. They've also started blocking port 25 to cut down on spammers. None of these ports have met with any resistance because it was generally accepted that it was to protect the end user.

When an ISP changes the way IP's route for a specific situation (such as this) it is usually alway to mitigate a negative situation. They do it all the time the only difference this time is a group of people noticed and complained.

If every ISP was only a dump pipe (which again in theory I agree with) then the internet would be basically unusable. DDoS attacks, man in the middle and good old fashioned UDP packets of death would run rampant and we'd all still be on AOL 3.0.

There needs to be a balance between protection and nurturing...almost like being a good parent. That's going to be a difficult balance for any ISP.
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said by Hasselhoff See Profile :

it does not matter why they blocked it. the point is is that they proved they have the means to do it and are willing to do it. net neutrality takes that job away from them.
I think that 4chan was the focus of a DDOS attack and the node was, innocently, sending back ACKs to the forged SYNs it received. If true, that's a good enough reason for AT&T to null route that IP and it's not a Network Neutrality issue at all.
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Re: Hmmm...

Right, because the kiddies at 4chan would never, ever be involved in perpetrating a DoS attack

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said by MAR_03_2002 See Profile :

And it didn't stop DailyKos from jumping to the wrong conclusions and going off on a rant:
»www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/···-tonight
Umm, who cares what anyone at DailyKOS has to say anyway? I hate that site, lol

Worse than 4chan even, lol

ExcessiveLOL

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Re: Hmmm...

",lol"

LOL!

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Well, AT&T blocked MySpace once blaming a "router issue." Even MySpace said it was an AT&T issue and they were working with AT&T. Funny, however, once Murdoch bought MySpace, no issues again.

It does raise the specter of AT&T blocking websites in the "public interest."

I don't know the truth so perhaps AT&T should publish it with facts to support it.

pnh102
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Re: Hmmm...

said by cameronsfx See Profile :

I don't know the truth so perhaps AT&T should publish it with facts to support it.
There is legal precedent that would allow for AT&T to be punished for blocking any website. I would refer to the case of one DSL provider blocking access to VOIP providers a few years back (the details escape me).

Furthermore, I would imagine that AT&T probably does not want to play the role of content police. Blocking access to certain parts of certain websites would most likely result in AT&T losing "common carrier" status with regard to its Internet network.
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Re: Hmmm...

said by pnh102 See Profile :

said by cameronsfx See Profile :

I don't know the truth so perhaps AT&T should publish it with facts to support it.
There is legal precedent that would allow for AT&T to be punished for blocking any website. I would refer to the case of one DSL provider blocking access to VOIP providers a few years back (the details escape me).

Furthermore, I would imagine that AT&T probably does not want to play the role of content police. Blocking access to certain parts of certain websites would most likely result in AT&T losing "common carrier" status with regard to its Internet network.
Hmm....I care if AT&T loses common carrier status? NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hasselhoff
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Re: Hmmm...

indeed.

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Uh... They didn't pay anything. In fact, that'd be breaking the rules as a matter of fact.

I'm just glad AT&T went and fixed this before things got too out of hand. Backlash is probably still coming though.

I read that thread last night as this was taking off and agree with the one guy who asks if anybody's ever heard of spoofed headers. Why the hell would 4chan be DDoSing itself? This is a completely clueless statement made by AT&T to admit wrongdoing; it's their way of covering their a**es before the cogs of the internet hate machine got fully spinning. Perhaps wise, but unwise of them to not admit wrongdoing and instead mutter something about DDoS and ARP and reliability that doesn't make sense.
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said by pnh102 See Profile :

How much did 4chan.org pay AT&T for this publicity?
As some people say, "Who cares?"

Never been there, never will.

4Chan.org sounds like some group to promote Jackie Chan movies!

adisor19

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The internet hate machine will be watching..

This was really close AT&T.. almost too close according to a lot of pple.

Adi
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Re: The internet hate machine will be watching..

Indeed, be fearful, be very fearful, people, the ATT black helicopter fleet is loose.

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1 edit
said by adisor19 See Profile :

This was really close AT&T.. almost too close according to a lot of pple.

Adi
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Battle Plans

4Chan already tried to fake the death of the ATT CEO.
»digg.com/tech_news/AT_T_CEO_Dead···port_com

There were numerous other battle plans and attacks in the making.

»encyclopediadramatica.com/AT%26T···ks_4chan
Kearnstd
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Re: Battle Plans

ahh 4chan, a bunch of attention grabbing script kiddie noise makers.

i went there once to see what the big deal was, i wanted my 12 keystrokes and one click back.
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Re: Battle Plans

said by Kearnstd See Profile :

ahh 4chan, a bunch of attention grabbing script kiddie noise makers.

i went there once to see what the big deal was, i wanted my 12 keystrokes and one click back.
Love em or hate em they are still a force to be reckoned with.

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Re: Battle Plans

said by Morac See Profile :

said by Kearnstd See Profile :

ahh 4chan, a bunch of attention grabbing script kiddie noise makers.

i went there once to see what the big deal was, i wanted my 12 keystrokes and one click back.
Love em or hate em they are still a force to be reckoned with.

A handful ants can be stepped on. Tens of thousands of ants can overrun a city.
why i spray the outside of my house with raid weekly

q.
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said by Kearnstd See Profile :

ahh 4chan, a bunch of attention grabbing script kiddie noise makers.

i went there once to see what the big deal was, i wanted my 12 keystrokes and one click back.
Same here.

I'm as much of a supporter of net neutrality as the next guy, but I wouldn't lose much sleep if my ISP blocked 4chan.

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said by Kearnstd See Profile :

ahh 4chan, a bunch of attention grabbing script kiddie noise makers.

i went there once to see what the big deal was, i wanted my 12 keystrokes and one click back.
No, they're cartoon pr0n.
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Explaining Why This was Blocked

All mobile operators have a problem or bottleneck in thier network in terms of capacity. When phones are not transmitting data they're not using limited RF channel resources.

The problem is that tcp scans can wake up thousands of mobiles who now then try to register on the network and thus take up all available channels. So the solution to when this happens is that they block the offending ip in question usually on network edge routers.

I have no idea how intergrated AT&T's network is, but it suggests that the wireless and landline portions share a common network and thus blocks to protect the wireless side can impact landline broadband users.
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Re: Explaining Why This was Blocked

From what I was seeing last night, apparently AT&T's mobile network was not affected, just DSL customers.

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Re: Explaining Why This was Blocked

Which was why I questioned the outburst, the site is not exactly mobile friendly.

So if it was not the mobile network, I'm not sure why they'd block it.
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This wasn't on AT&T Mobility. Just the former SBC DSL network.

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lol

trust me.. moot doesn't have the money to get AT&T do plan some sort of publicity stunt for 4chan.
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What?!

You mean that thousands of AT&T customers couldn't get express their "/b/tard'ism" (sic)? I didn't realize that was a bad thing.

Sarcasm Complete.

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Re: What?!

One of the tags in the Slashdot coverage of this story read: andnothingofvaluewaslost.

It has since been removed.
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From what it looks like here:

it looks like cogent( from forum link here) as well as unwired broadband also blocked them for the same stuff as well.

unwired broadband blocking now

although this link below seems to think the owner of 4chan should be doing more instead of taking a back seat.

»mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nano···198.html

said by link above
The problem is the DDoS attacks. Not AT&T. 4chan's users constantly instigate
this. Chris Poole needs to do more than just sit back and watch. He needs to
start collecting this information and turning it in to the authorities, because
all of this is convered under domestic terrorism as a cyber-crime. I'm betting
there's reasons why he hasn't. He's afraid to get into trouble himself on some
of the content that's posted to /b/... whether it's there 5 seconds or 5 minutes.
I could be way off on this but anyone thinking 4chan isn't remotely responsible for this either isn't reading or always thinks it's AT&T's fault no matter what. It's probably not 100% 4chan's fault just like it's probably not 100% AT&T's fault. For 4Chan to think it's not their fault at all is like trying to sell me a bridge crossing Missouri to illinois for $1.
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Re: From what it looks like here:

»www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/07/4chan/
Now 4chan’s founder, Moot, has admitted the whole thing was kind of his fault.

“For the past three weeks, 4chan has been under a constant DDoS attack,” Moot wrote in an afternoon update. “We were able to filter this specific type of attack in a fashion that was more or less transparent to the end user. … Unfortunately, as an unintended consequence of the method used, some Internet users received errant traffic from one of our network switches. A handful happened to be AT&T customers.”
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Re: From what it looks like here:

said by fatness See Profile :

»www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/07/4chan/
Now 4chan’s founder, Moot, has admitted the whole thing was kind of his fault.

“For the past three weeks, 4chan has been under a constant DDoS attack,” Moot wrote in an afternoon update. “We were able to filter this specific type of attack in a fashion that was more or less transparent to the end user. … Unfortunately, as an unintended consequence of the method used, some Internet users received errant traffic from one of our network switches. A handful happened to be AT&T customers.”
This part of his statement brings in to question whether the jerks at 4Chan didn't engineer the mess themselves for the publicity:
quote:
We’re glad to see this short-lived debacle has prompted renewed interest and debate over net neutrality and internet censorship—two very important issues that don’t get nearly enough attention—so perhaps this was all just a blessing in disguise.

Aside from that, I’ll also add that there is some big news due later this week. Keep an eye on the News page, Twitter, and global message for updates.

As always, I can be reached at moot@4chan.org.
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Re: From what it looks like here:

said by MAR_03_2002 See Profile :

This part of his statement brings in to question whether the jerks at 4Chan didn't engineer the mess themselves for the publicity:
You are not the only one thinking that.

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said by fatness See Profile :

»www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/07/4chan/
Now 4chan’s founder, Moot, has admitted the whole thing was kind of his fault.

“For the past three weeks, 4chan has been under a constant DDoS attack,” Moot wrote in an afternoon update. “We were able to filter this specific type of attack in a fashion that was more or less transparent to the end user. … Unfortunately, as an unintended consequence of the method used, some Internet users received errant traffic from one of our network switches. A handful happened to be AT&T customers.”
Surprise, surprise, surprise.
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Re: From what it looks like here:

I never thought I would be saying this but I actually side with AT&T here ! Don't get me wrong AT&T has done some pretty shady things in the past. I believe the network engineers involved acted responsibly and did what was necessary to protect the quality of service for its customers. 4chan has admitted that malicious traffic was coming from its network but downplayed the amount of traffic. It has also been shown that other network providers have blocked the site temporarily. I highly doubt that 4chans hands are clean in this matter due to the subject nature discussed on the website.

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If you read this.......

you just lost THE GAME.
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Re: If you read this.......

i raged

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Oh goddamn it.

fonzbear2000
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Considering the content that's on 4chan.....

I'm surprised that BBR is even mentioning their name because there probably are members under the age of 18 that read this site.
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Re: Considering the content that's on 4chan.....

said by fonzbear2000 See Profile :

I'm surprised that BBR is even mentioning their name because there probably are members under the age of 18 that read this site.
»alexa.com/siteinfo/4chan.org

In Top 400 sites for USA. In Alexa Top 1000, which means is automatically notable.
compare to »alexa.com/siteinfo/dslreports.com

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2 edits

good news everyone!

if you're reading this in my voice....you lose.
Forums » AT&T Makes Friends With 4Chan


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